SPEAKER_03 0:01

All right. So I went to the Easter Vigil. I am I picked my daughter as my confirmation saint, which is a pretty cool thing because she was baptized before she died. So I asked him if I could do that. And he said, yeah. So I did. So she's a saint who is, I don't know anybody who has their child as their confirmation saint, but that was a kind of a cool thing because it was after they had died. Um and after that experience of confirmation, it's it's interesting because I really felt God was calling me, maybe because of the Holy Spirit, like this different play of the Holy Spirit in my life because of the confirmation, was calling me to create something to help other grieving mothers specifically.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Welcome to the Catholic Grief Podcast. I'm Jenny Berba. After walking through profound loss, I discovered that grief and faith are not enemies. In this space, we speak openly about grieving. We bring our grief to the foot of the cross, anchor ourselves in Scripture and the sacraments, and gently rebuild with Christ at the center.

SPEAKER_00 1:17

If you are carrying sorrow, you are seeing it here. Let's walk this path together.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

So welcome, Eileen. I'm so excited to have you on the show. Um, but before we get into it, let's go ahead and say a quick prayer. Great name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. Amen. Heavenly Father, fill this space with your presence. Help to guide our conversation, help those that need to hear what we have to say. Help them find their healing and the resources. Okay, Eileen. Um I in lieu of an introduction, I feel like it's best if everyone just hears your story straight from you. So why don't you I feel like the best thing to do is take us back to that season of your life when grief became such a significant part of your story.

SPEAKER_03 3:24

Yeah. Um, well, thanks for having me on and uh giving me the chance to share. Um my it's interesting because the the death of my twin daughters, it was the biggest um place that I realized grief was part of my story. But in healing from that and in processing that, I actually realized that there had been grief as a part of my story from my childhood. It just um it it opened up some some woundings, some trauma, some things that I um sort of didn't realize I was grieving or didn't realize I had to process. Um but as far as grief related to the loss of someone I loved, um, you know, I had been through the loss of grandparents and uncles and um relationships like that, uh, which were challenging. I loved my grandparents. Um, and my grandfather died when I was just eight years old. He had throat cancer, and it was like a really horrible he had a a uh trachea, a tracheal tube in his throat, you know, like the hole in his throat, and he had to kind of cover it up to talk or put something on it. I can't I can't totally remember, but I I can recall visiting him in the hospital and just being so heartbroken. He was only 56 or maybe 54. He was ri relatively young when he died. Um, and so that was probably my first experience of loss that I remembered. But um I was surprised to find that after my husband and I were married and we had two children, uh, I had a miscarriage. And um the grief from that was very unlike my grief from my grandfather. You know, it I was I didn't realize that that there were different, I don't want to say levels of grief. I mean law all loss is loss, and everybody has different things that they grieve. But the the experience of losing my grandfather was the experience of like um missing the place where he was in my life. And the experience of losing a child or losing having this first miscarriage, and would go on to have another miscarriage later, um, was a forward loss. It was like I kept thinking about like who they would have been or what stage of pregnancy I would have been in at ever any given time when their due date came, it was like I would be this big, you know, having this baby and my belly would be like this, you know. Um, and so it was very confusing to be like I'm grieving, but like forward instead of the the backward void that they would have, you know, they they were in. Um and so uh after healing from that, we we had another baby, and then I learned I was expecting twins. Um so we had three three living boys and a miscarriage, and then I learned I was expecting twins. Um but halfway through my pregnancy with my twins, I learned that they had a a condition called twin-to-twin transfusion syndrome. And it happens sometimes when multiples are sharing a placenta. The the vascular connection is supposed to be just with me and them, between, you know, blood flow from them to me and me to them. Um but instead, what happens is that some some connection forms between the two of them. So one of them is pumping blood into the other one. So um we learned that at our 20-week ultrasound, and um it's interesting. I think anybody who who has one of those ultrasounds where you know something's wrong, you just you can tell that the tech is not looking at you or talking to you the way that they usually do. Um, and I saw the babies on the monitor, and um they looked okay to me, but I could tell something was off. And um, she said she was gonna go get the doctor, and she left, and I said to Patrick, something's wrong. And he was like, What do you mean? Like we saw them both, they're fine, everything's fine. And I was like, No, no, no, like I just know something's wrong. So in comes the doctor, and um, you know, I found out that they were quite advanced in this um condition, and it was really harmful to them, and and there was sort of a a you know, a scramble to um get us in with a the children's hospital in Philadelphia where they could do this in uterosurgery to try to correct these connections and save the babies. And um, it was like I had to stay on bed rest, and it was within a couple of days that we had to go and have the surgery done. And the next morning after the surgery, uh I was in the hospital overnight after the surgery, and the next morning one of our twins had died, so we learned that um the one who was smaller, she was pumping her blood into her sister, um, had died. So then um then we had to go back for many more tests and things to make sure that the other one was doing okay. Ended up delivering her prematurely because the surgery also sort of like irritated my uterus and I was like having a lot of contractions. So my water broke early, I delivered her early, and then she spent 47 days in the NICU and she died in the NICU. So, um, so in two months we buried two daughters, like separately. Um so yeah, the grief from that was uh like to say it was crushing, is it's like an understatement. You know, like I literally felt like I couldn't even get out of bed, I couldn't function. And um, and I still had these three little boys who were four and under at home to take care of, which is a challenge in and of itself to try to grieve with children, as you know. Um and then we would have another baby, actually, another two babies, and then another miscarriage, and then our sixth um living child was born. So, yeah, so um the grief, I think, from losing our twins one after the other was the most significant um suffering that I've ever had in my life. And um the the efforts to try to heal from that um were I I just didn't find the resources for it that I needed. I I didn't know what I needed, but I knew that like my normal understanding of grief as like the you know, the five stages of grief, or you know, I just it it didn't help me at all. It it was hard to figure out what was going on. My faith was shaken in a way that it had never been shaken before. Um I couldn't tell what phase of grief is the one where like you just can't make any decisions. Do you know what I mean? Like it doesn't fit into those five stages, and it was just like, ah, like what do I make for dinner? Like I don't, I can't even think clearly. I just want to sit and stare and process and think about it over and over again. So um there was a significant amount of I learned um trauma from having been called back to the hospital as our Nikki baby was dying, and watching them sort of code her and do the paddles on this tiny little baby, right? And um chest compressions and the whole thing, you know, just all the things that you see on the hospital shows like they're doing to your baby, and you can't do anything to help her. And so, yeah, so there was that um there was just lingering trauma that was complicating my grief too, which I learned about later. But um anyway, yeah, so that was my my experience with sort of the rawness of those depths of grief, that that fresh grief.

SPEAKER_01 11:21

Yeah. I do have one question, and I don't know. I so you know how you said um grieving like your grandparents was different than grieving your miscarriage. Did you find that having your one twin be alive for that 47 days, did that feel different than the miscarriage?

SPEAKER_03 11:40

Um did like the the loss of her, did the the loot did having her? Yeah, yes, it did. Yeah. Um, because now I had now I knew her, right? So then I had I went in every single day to the hospital, like I was always there for rounds. Like, you know, you you you parent your child however you can and whatever way they need it. So at that time it was like she lives in the NICU, so I'm pumping and I'm going into the NICU every day to hold her and uh meet with her staff and you know, just try to understand her needs as best as I can. Um and you know, there was a challenge leaving my boys at the hospital, was she she got airlifted to a higher level in NICU after she was born, so that hospital was about an hour away. So every day we had to I had to leave my boys at home, go see her, and then leave her and come back to see them. And so there was, you know, there was just it was just such a such a challenging time. But um, yes, the now I had this relationship with her, right? So um whereas the baby in my womb for a miscarriage, um yeah, I don't I don't want to say I didn't have a relationship with them. It was just a different a different one.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

That's what I imagine because I've only lost, you know, in utero. I haven't lost one that I've you know experienced some time with yet. So I was just that was mostly just out of curiosity. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:11

And it's it's one of those things that, you know, one of those the challenging parts of grief is the jumble of emotions that we feel all at once, and it's hard to hold space for all of them at the same time. And so you can probably imagine that being a mom that um that that experience of leaving the boys, try driving an hour, going to the hospital, being with her for six hours or so, then driving back to be with the boys. Uh, it was exhausting. It was draining. And when she died, I didn't have to do that anymore. So there was a bit of relief that accompanied that experience, you know, like just like, okay, I don't have to do that anymore. And it was, and then, you know, right on its heels was guilt that I was relieved that she died. You know, like it was just um it's it just grief is so complicated. And to think that it's okay that I was relieved that I didn't have to go back to the hospital um was I couldn't even I couldn't wrap my head around that that would be okay. You know, because because the guilt came along with it and and thought, who how could I be so awful? Of course I would keep doing it if she was still alive, but um you know, it I struggled it's complicated.

SPEAKER_01 14:29

Yeah, I struggled with that same complication when my husband passed away because I had ten children. Now, two of them were already living on their own in an apartment, but they were close by. They lived like 15 minutes away from us.

SPEAKER_02 14:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

So, you know, having now it was during COVID, so I only got to go to the hospital three times over the month that he was in the hospital. But it was it was still hard trying to make sure he was okay and watching his um his my chart and talking to doctors and then still having to mother the children. And then yeah, there was there was that sense of relief when it was all over.

SPEAKER_03 15:04

So I totally so straining to do all of the things, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Yeah, absolutely. Um, thank you so much for sharing all of that. Um, I'm sure the listeners they appreciate it as well. Let's talk a little bit more about how um how you struggled with your faith during this time. Um did you ever feel like there was a right Catholic way to grieve? And did you I mean you talked about feeling guilty, but did you feel like the Catholic faith had any um anything to do with certain feelings that you were having? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_03 15:42

Yeah, of course. Um it actually is very interesting. I my story is that I was baptized Catholic. I made my first communion, about eight or nine years old, and then my family left the church and became Protestant. Mennonite, actually, if you can believe it. Non-denominational, like Mennonite leaning church is what we went to. Um, and I was Protestant from that eight or nine years old until about 30. 30. So that was 22 years of being Protestant. Um, or like practicing Protestantism. I guess I was still technically Catholic because I was baptized, right? So um, so I had a very Protestant mindset still. Like this this loss happened, the loss of our twins happened about five years into our marriage, which was about five and a half years after I reverted, came back to the Catholic faith. So my mindset was still Protestant. And what that meant for me was that my thought about my suffering was that I just needed more faith. Like if I had if my faith was strong enough, this wouldn't be so hard. Um, which is gonna make me cry. Actually, it just makes me tear up just thinking about that. Um that was that was my that was my mindset. So the the Catholic faith I found as I would struggle for those resources to to help myself heal or to have God help me heal, um, has a framework for suffering that the Protestant Church does not have. And it includes a purpose for it, uh, you know, the redemptive nature of suffering that I didn't I didn't have in my thoughts. And so I think I made things harder for myself by thinking, like, what's wrong with me that this is so hard? Or like I remember being my faith with in God never faltered. Like I never had like that rebellious time where I was like, I left the church and then I came back. Like I always believed in him, I always trusted him. Uh I had a pretty strong faith. And I can remember going outside after, well, actually, our brid our Bridget, our second twin in the NICU, died on a Thursday night. It was almost midnight when she died. And um, we went to Mass on Sunday. So um you can imagine that my mind was not in mass that day. It was sort of still processing and grieving and f healing from everything that happened. And I remember as we knelt for the consecration, I was in my mind, I was just wrestling with God, just talking to Him and being like, you know, I have always believed you to be good, you know, and I'm and you talk about, you know, it says like, what father, if his son asked for a fish, would give him a scorpion, or asked for bread, would give him a stone, right? And I thought, you know, you're you're good and you give good gifts, and I just like, how is this good? I need I didn't, it's not that I wanted to say like I don't think you're good. It's that I just was asking him to help me understand how this could possibly be good, right? Like, help me understand it. And um, as he so often does, he used I just remember kneeling for the consecration, having kind of like this conversation with him in my mind. And he gave me this the like this flash of insight that felt like the curtain was just peeled back a little bit and then closed again. But it was like, oh, and he used my own motherhood to give me an example because I was thinking in my head, you know, we all say no as mothers to our children for things that are bad for them, right? Like no is part of being a good parent. Um, but I can't imagine saying no to my child for something that would be this devastating and like taking back a gift that I gave them, right? Like if the children were a gift that you gave to begin with, like I wish I hadn't gotten pregnant at all then, you know, if it was going to be like this, you're gonna take them both back. Um so I can't imagine doing that to my children and saying no like this. And how can you be a good dad and do this? How can you be a good father? And so the the insight that I gleaned was just a scene. It was like a scene in my life, like that not didn't actually happen, but it was like imagine this. And at the time I had my son, who's now off at college, is was two, and so I was baking a cake in my kitchen for him for his birthday, like in the scene. It was just such a quick flash. And I needed these chocolate chips to spell out his name, like happy birthday PJ, or something like on the cake, right? And I had counted out the chips I needed and set them aside and then was putting the cake together. But he came into the room and said, Can I have some of those chocolate chips? And I told him no. So being two and having like this tunnel vision of like being denied what he wanted, he naturally had a temper tantrum, you know, like he he cried and couldn't understand. And um, and but but like being his mother and knowing that I had a purpose for those chips, that was gonna be even better than him just popping a few in his mouth. It's like, but it's part of your cake and I'm gonna surprise you, you know, or like you're gonna love it. Um and it's better, like you're gonna like it even more was the idea. Uh it meant that I could comfort him in his crying and still keep my no and be like, please just trust me, right? Just trust me that I have a purpose for it and that you're it it's better for you. It's gonna be better for you. And so, God, you know, in the story, of course, I was PJ and God was me. And it was just like, oh, like I understand if I can see it like that, like a this is a trust me, no, this is better for you. Um it did not at all take my grief away. It did not at all prevent you know years of further sorrow and and wrestling with my faith. But it was like this tiny little thread of hope that I could hold on to that was just like, please just trust me. And like, you know, the waves of grief would crash and it would feel like I couldn't hold on to that. But but it was still there, you know, that it was just like, oh yeah, I just have to trust that you have a purpose for this. And so anyway, but between that experience of having a feeling that he was just asking me to trust him with this, know that there was something better that he was intending for for these twins, you know, that they were they were a gift and they were for me, and there was something better for me in the way that things had happened. Um and learning actually about Our Lady of Sorrows, as we talked about in our prayer time. Um, and and she helped kind of give me a model for suffering well, um, and what redemptive suffering looks like. And so kind of wrapping my mind or losing that Protestant mindset of like, just you know, just buckle down and have faith and you won't be so sad about this, was more like, yes, you can't, you can suffer and you can be sad, and it's okay because you're limited by what you know. You know, I was that blinded, you know, like the two-year-old. Um, and I'm not saying that our grief is a temper tantrum, and I'm not saying that we're acting like babies when we are crying and suffering. But what I am saying is that we too are limited by what we see, and we forget, you know, that's that's fix your eyes on what is unseen and not on what is seen. We forget to do that. We forget that this isn't all there is. And so um I recognized that I was forgetting that and then sort of felt like I need to to grapple with what that means. And I remember even just standing outside and looking up at the stars and being like, okay, if you are real, like can you give me a shooting star or something to let me know? You know, I just was asking for these signs, um, so that I so that my sort of my faith isn't in vain. And he never did, he never did give me give me those signs. But I'm glad that he didn't, I think, because it really like strengthened my faith muscle, like at like in a workout, you know, like I needed to exercise that muscle, and uh I didn't realize how much I needed to, and I think that his not giving me, you know, the shooting star that I was like hoping for or whatever. You know, it sounds so silly, but at the time it was really important to me.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

Yeah, I totally get it. And yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 24:55

And um it was really important to me, and and now I'm kind of grateful that he didn't give do it, you know, because I needed to be like, what do I already know about him? And that's what I need to be looking looking at, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:11

Yeah, absolutely. He does he give us these moments to learn more about who he actually is. And I like in my last podcast episode, I talked about how I don't have to be grateful for my suffering to be grateful what for what he's done in my suffering.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

But it's all it is complicated too, because if it wasn't for my suffering, I wouldn't have learned the things that I've learned, both about myself and who I am and about who he is.

SPEAKER_03 25:45

Yeah, I wish there was another way to learn it, but I agree that that's what happened for me too. And it was like there I I don't think I would have learned it a different way, you know. Yeah, I I needed it.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

Yeah, and everyone learns differently. Um, because I know there's a lot of people that have amazing faith and amazing understanding that haven't had to to go through specific types of grief. Um, and I don't know what their actual story is. I mean, yeah, they probably went through something. Yeah, they probably went through something. Yeah, it's just a different kind of grief. Because there's all kinds of grief that I know that well, it's interesting too.

SPEAKER_03 26:22

I found that especially with this particular like um condition that the twins had, there was there were it's called TGTS for short, but there were some communities online that other people were going through it and having the laser surgery and the things that we did to try to help our babies. And of course, our babies ended up dying, but some people one of their babies lived, some people both their babies lived, you know. And I had a really good friend online who was we were going kind of going through the same thing at the same time, and she had her surgery just at the same hospital as me, just maybe a couple weeks later or earlier, I can't remember. But her both both of her boys lived, and both of our girls died. And I just remember saying, like, feeling like that was so unfair and being like, Why, why? Like, why did they get to have theirs? And we lost both of our like we couldn't even have one of ours.

SPEAKER_02 27:15

Right.

SPEAKER_03 27:15

And um, I just felt like he just he just said there's things I wanted to teach them through ha having theirs, and there's things I wanted to teach you through losing yours, you know, like so there was you know, maybe, maybe they needed, you know, he was teaching them something about himself in the miraculous experience of having been able to save both of their babies and teaching us something about himself by losing ours. Yeah. So it it was another one of those times when I just had to trust, like I don't see the lesson, I don't understand what you're doing, but I have to trust trust you either way, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:52

And it's interesting because you know, there's those um five five levels of grief or five I I can't remember. Five stages of grief. Yeah, five stages, and um it doesn't it doesn't exactly work like that because it'll be five years since my husband passed away in October. Um October will be five years. And I just recently encountered two people within a week of each other that told me their miracle stories of basically being on the deathbed, being on ventilators, and surviving miraculously. And it did bring back those feelings of, well, what about like on that? Like, yeah, why why didn't I get a miracle like that? Um and and so even even almost five years later, I still struggle with some of those feelings. Yes, yes. So now uh let's talk a little bit about how grief changes our relationships, uh not only with God, but other also with other people. Did you experience a change in relationships with other people?

SPEAKER_03 28:55

Yes, yeah. Um good and bad. No, it went some of them went one way and some of them went another way. Um well that yeah, so one of the things that um my own grief did was I I always had a bad relationship with my mom, a challenging relationship with my mom, let's put it that way. Um and uh it was confusing. I had gone to counseling a few times for it, um just because I didn't understand I didn't understand how to navigate it. And and but the counselor suggested a personality disorder, you know, maybe that was ki complicating things, and um, and that did that did sort of shed some light on the experiences I was having and helped me, I didn't know what a personality disorder was, but when she said it and I looked it up, I was like, oh my gosh, that sounds like what's happening. Um, so one of the things that happens in that case is that sometimes people can just not have um empathy, not have an ability to put themselves in your place or um to consider how you might be feeling. And um, and so it's especially challenging for a person who struggles with a personality disorder, if that's what it is. I'm not diagnosing her, but I'm just saying it's something like that, um to um you know, to to support you and you need help because things tend to just be about their own needs and what they uh and what they want. And um, so uh that is what happened with um with my mom and uh the the the grief was so hard and crushing and all of my energy was going really not even to caring for myself but just like taking care of my children because trying to grieve and take care of toddlers and and babies and children um is all consuming. I mean it's just it it just took every ounce of energy that I had. And um and yet there were you know calls and and them wanting to sort of um have me do things the way that they wanted me to do them or like challenge the way I was choosing to grieve. And anyway, I had to cut off the relationship ultimately because I couldn't even keep my head above water hardly anyway with without it. And it was just every interaction just pulled me under, pulled me under, pulled me under, like emotionally, physically. Um so I just had to say, had to step back and just say, you know what, I I can't, I I I'm sure you're not gonna understand why I'm doing this, but I need to just not not interact with you for a little while right now. And uh, and that actually has almost not come back to normal at all since then, um, because that was upsetting for them and for the other people in my family. Um, and so they didn't understand why I was doing that, and they got upset too, and so I lost a whole bunch of people in in that decision. Um, but anyway, so that that you know, there there are there are ways that we hope that people will show up for us, and some people are capable of doing that and some aren't. And I I had a friend who just disappeared, like just never wrote back at all, or or email like we used to email pretty regularly. I think it's just such a it's so overwhelming, especially losing two, losing a baby is is hard for people to deal with. Losing two in two months is really hard, you know. Just it's just like they don't know what to say. Yeah, and so they don't say anything. And um but at the same time, there were people, there was this one woman in my son's play group. I hardly knew her. She lived in the same town as me. We we had there was like a mom's group, and we all got our kids together once a month or something to play. And she just said, I would like to do your boys' laundry. Because I was on bed rest. Oh, that I was on bed rest before after our surgery and before I delivered Bridget um for two months, eight weeks of bed rest um before my water broke. And so she she just said, I would love to come by and do your boys' laundry because I couldn't do anything. I couldn't do anything, I couldn't get up. And so she said every Tuesday, if you could just have laundry, like there a basket until my husband would gather their laundry and put it by the door, she would take it home, she would open her, open the door and say, It's it's Dina. Just then I would say, Thank you, Dina, from my bedroom, like yell down the stairs. And she would take the basket home Tuesday, wash it off, fold it all, bring it back on Wednesday morning, drop it off. It's Dina dropping it off. And then Patrick could just put it in their drawers. And I like that was such a simple act of service, but I still I still keep in touch with her and tell her all the time, like that's awesome. You don't know how huge that was for me. You know, it's just one of those things that I couldn't do for my family anymore.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

And it's not something that you would have thought to ask someone else to do. So for someone to offer that, that's that's amazing. Because I would never think to offer that to someone, but it makes so much sense because laundry is very daunting.

SPEAKER_03 34:45

Right, right, right, right. So Patrick could handle mine and his, and then she would take care of the boy. We just put them all in a big, you know, all together in a basket, and she would wash, dry, and fold them and drop them back off. It was just such a like we're still friends because of that, you know. And I have I have another friend who had lost her baby was stillborn in February, where we lost our twins in the summer. Um, and so she and I just spent time sort of commiserating, I guess, but also just you know, trying to build each other up and like walk through it together. And it was so nice to have somebody who knew how hard it was and and we could just cry together and there was no pretense, you know, that everything was okay. Um, and we're still friends too. So yeah, it's just interesting to see how you know some people can can be there for you and some people just can't. I don't know why, but I I don't I don't totally fault them. I think they just don't know how to do it. And yeah, um and and that's hard that it is another thing to grieve though, you know, when you think that somebody is going to show up for you because they've been your friend for so many years or your family for so many years, and you just are thinking, if anybody's gonna help me, it's gonna be these people, surely. And then they don't. Um, yeah, it can be disappointing and it could be something else that we have to grieve.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

Right.

SPEAKER_03 36:15

Um, you know, while we're while we're already hurting, which is so hard.

SPEAKER_01 36:20

And I do think it's one of those things where you have to be willing to forgive them for your own good. Um and also something else that just came to me is you know, we're all gifted with different charisms.

SPEAKER_00 36:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:32

And so I think some people have um have the charism of helping the grieving, where others don't have that charisma. So it is difficult for them.

SPEAKER_03 36:42

Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

Um and then, you know, talking about all of this and how important it is to have community and the right people around us. Um I I think I don't know if you said it while we were talking, but um, but I know that I've seen it in your stuff, is that when you were looking for Catholic grief resources, you did not find very much at all. And I actually had the same experience when I was looking for Catholic-specific re uh grief resources. I couldn't find because even at our church they use grief share, which grief share is a great program, but it's not Catholic. And there's nothing, I mean, you know, it helps a lot of people, but there's certain things like you had said before about our Catholic faith that's so important to make sure that we grasp onto during this uh this these times. So um so at what point did that frustration become your sense of that perhaps God was asking you to create what you couldn't find?

SPEAKER_03 37:48

Yeah, that's such a good question. Um so we I went to our did you have grief share at your Catholic Church? Like the Catholic Church shared the grief share program? Oh my gosh. Okay, yeah. So that's that's interesting. Uh I I found it interesting, especially as a convert revert who was, you know, just learn I I I'm the kind of person that's like, if I'm gonna do something, I need to really understand why. So like my part of my coming back into the church wa into the Catholic Church was um just really understanding why, like why? Why do they believe this? What is the what did the church fathers believe? You know, like what I really kind of dug into all the, I mean, not that I understand all of it, but I, you know, when I had a question, I needed to understand why. And one of the things that our even our priest, our priest at our parish, he was such a kind man. And I know it's it's that same idea of like some people can the know what to say and do, and some people don't. But I remember him telling us that like he was, you know, he just was like, How are you guys doing? you know, a few weeks after our second twin died, and um he encouraged us by saying that we now had two angels watching over our family. Right? I mean, maybe the listeners don't know why that's funny, but that's funny because our our babies don't turn into angels. Like so our the fact that our priest said that, and I was like, I even I know that's not true, and I'm just like a baby Catholic again, you know.

SPEAKER_02 39:24

So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:25

Um, and the significance of that, I'm just gonna say for the listeners, is that Christ doesn't have a salvific relationship with the angels. Like there's a specific relationship that God has with humanity, that we are made in his image. God didn't Jesus did not die to rescue the fallen angels, right? He like he died to save humanity, and so the relationship that humanity has with God is unique and special, and um people don't become angels when they die.

unknown 39:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:56

So uh so anyway, I just thought, oh my goodness, like our church is just lacking in ways to help people who are grieving, you know, like they don't have the resources for this. And there was a grief share program at a church, a pr a Protestant church down the road from where we lived. And so I did go to that grief share program just because I, like I mentioned before, like I had never experienced this intense kind of grief. I mean, I was hardly functioning, and it was just like, how do I get through? Like, how do people get through this? What do I do to sort of make sense of this? And I I did, you know, I I will say grief share taught me some things. Um, and I it was sort of like a take what's helpful and leave what's not kind of a thing. One of the things that it taught me was about secondary losses, which are like all of those things that we lose in addition to are the person who died. And um I had I was feeling those the pain of secondary loss, but didn't have verbiage for it. I didn't have the words for it or recognize like, oh, that's what this is. You know, it sort of felt like it didn't have a a home until they taught me about that, and I was so thankful to learn about what that was. But um yeah, I I really muddled through. I used a lot of writing to help process. I I read as I read the Bible, I would just try to hope that that would help me like cling on to verses that I could hold on to. I remember listening to a TED talk as I was cleaning up my boy's room one day, um, by this guy who was Vietnamese and he was talking about his the Vietnamese language didn't have doesn't have the subjunctive mood, which is like sort of things the subjunctive mood is like things that like could, should, would happen. You know, it's like it's sort of it's sort of like they haven't happened, but they if they would have, then this would have happened, right? And he was saying like there was an a tragedy that happened to his family. And because they didn't have the subjunctive mood, his suggestion was that his mom or family didn't spend time thinking about like what would have been, could have been, should have been. Um, like if it was like they they it was like if they had gotten on this train, the train ended up exploding, but they were running late and and they missed it, and it was sort of like that near miss. Like if we would have taken this train, then this would have happened, you know. But he said, you know, he was suggesting in this talk that the subjunctive mood was what allowed us who have it to sort of ruminate on the would have, could have, should have's, which is such a big thing when uh we're grieving. And I was like at the stage in my grief where that was like preoccupying my thoughts a lot of those. If I had just done this, like what would have been, could have been, should have been. Um, and so I thought that was so interesting that he was implying that the lack of that mood even if it didn't give them the the words for that, and so that they would not have even felt or thought those, like what would have been, could have been. So so that that sort of made me think, like, really is it just my language that's making me sort of ruminate on these things? But you know, I I I don't know how I processed things. I think I just had to write them down. I had to like let myself feel the feelings. I remember there was a busy morning getting ready for church, and I thought, God, you must have known that I couldn't handle two more babies. So that's why you took them from me, you know, that there was that thought in my mind, and then I was like, no, that's not how you operate. Like you wouldn't have given them to me and take, you know, so I really had to wrestle, like you I would have these thoughts, and then I'd have to like be like, but what do I know is true about God? You know, and I'd have to counter them always, like it was like a push pull, like, you know, this this is what I'm thinking and feeling, but no. Like, I know this to be true about him. So um I I found myself just kind of having to go back and forth and like keep returning to like, nope, this is what I know is true. This is what I know is true. And so um I would say, well, it was interesting because I um I came back to the church later. I never got confirmed. And I got confirmed in 2018. Um my my priest just learned that I hadn't been, and he was like, Well, you should get confirmed. I get confirmed at the next Easter, right? So I went to the Easter Vigil. I am I picked my daughter as my confirmation saint, which is a pretty cool thing because she was baptized before she died. So I asked him if I could do that, and he said, Yeah, so I did. So she's a saint who is, I don't know anybody who has their child as their confirmation saint, but that was a kind of a cool thing because it was after they had died. Um and it after that experience of confirmation, it's it's interesting because I really felt God was calling me, maybe because of the Holy Spirit, like this different play of the Holy Spirit in my life because of the confirmation, was calling me to create something to help other grieving mothers specifically. And I th I remember thinking, like, okay, but I have no idea how I would go about doing that. You know, I don't even know where to start with something like that. And so it was sort of like I just wanted your okay, and like I'll tell you later how to start it. But just like just keep that in mind that I went to, you know, I remember saying it to Patrick, and he was like, How are you gonna do that? I was like, I have no idea. I don't know. But what ended up happening was that I um I was reading um, oh, I I was preparing a homeschool lesson for my kids on Our Lady of Sorrows because it was September, and I sort of am learning about the saints and the feast days and things along with our kids. I was at that time especially even more because it was still relatively new. And um as I prepared this lesson and I was like, oh, like let's look up what are these sorrows? Like, what does this title mean? And and I looked up the sorrows for her, and uh I remembered the Holy Spirit sort of prompted me, like, you need to look into these more, you need to look into this more. So I ordered this book by St. Alphonsus Aguori called The Glories of Mary, where he unpacks her seven sorrows as one of the chapters in the book. And I took it to Starbucks with me one night as a mom's night out, and I was just like sitting down reading it, and um I as I was reading it, I was able to put myself in Our Lady's place for each one of those sorrows and relate it to one of my own experiences in my loss. And I I had a big resistance to Our Lady because of my mother wound, because of my being a Protestant. Um, you know, like I just had this Protestant mindset and a gaping mother wound. And I was just like, I can take father, son, and holy spirit, but like I don't really need a mom. Thanks. I'm good, you know, I don't really need Mary. So interestingly, she as as I was reading through these, um she says to Saint Bridget of Sweden in the you know, in in the glories of Mary, St. Alphonsus talks about different um quotes from Saints that relate to our lady. And our lady had appeared to St. Bridget and she says something like, I'm I'm looking all around the world and I'm not finding anyone who's pitying me. Like I don't find anybody who pities me anymore. And I, you know, St. Bridget of Sweden was from like the 13th century, and I thought, you know, at first when I first read it, I thought, okay, you know what, as a grieving mother, I do sometimes feel like everybody else has moved on. And I'm the one who still remembers, you know, their birthdays and sort of the anniversary of their death, and like even my husband, it doesn't always come right to his mind, you know. But I experienced their loss as their mother in a unique way. And I thought maybe she was saying something like that, but then I was thinking, wait a minute, like you're already in heaven and Jesus is in heaven with you. And like, why do you need pity for that for this anymore? You know, like why are you wanting pity? And so I like I sort of said a prayer and asked her to help me understand what she meant. And it was she was saying or I what I felt like she was saying back is that like people are just sinning and they're not recognizing the price that was paid for their sin, like to by my son and by me, you know, that that was that happened. And so, like, I just want them to like as they're sinning, like to just think about what happened, what what price was paid for this sin, you know? And um, so that is sort of like what she's saying in it's the because the the fruit of meditating on our lady's sorrows is true contrition for your sins. That's what we pray. The Seven Sorrows Rosary, contrition is what we're asking for because contrition is what motivates us motivates us to not sin anymore, right? To not not continue in that sin. Of course, we we might still, but but true contrition helps us to to to repent.

SPEAKER_01 49:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 49:29

And so so that like I as I thought about that, I was like, oh yeah, like I that that's like a whole different perspective on your sorrows that I hadn't thought of before. And then as I was reading through the sorrows and able to relate them, like for example, her the first sorrow is the prophecy of Simeon. And I when I thought about that sorrow, I thought, you know, we meditate on the presentation as the joyful mystery, as a joyful mystery, right? So you can imagine that as our lady is getting ready to present him, she's coming back to the temple for the first time after her like period of uncleanness or whatever, you know, ceremonial uncleanness. So it's 40 days later, and she's coming back, and she's joyful because we're we're meditating on that for her joyful mystery. And then she gets this prophecy, right? That that Jesus is going to be sort of the suffering Messiah that she had probably knew very well about in Isaiah, and a sword would pierce her heart too. And she told Saint Matilda that all her joy turned to sorrow, like instantly. And for me, I was just telling you about that ultrasound that I had, right? For me, I just thought about that ultrasound where we're like, yay, we're gonna find out if they're girls and we can see our twins. And then it was just like, I remember even like my my focus sort of like went to a pinpoint or something, you know, it's like as they're telling me like they're dying and we need to get you in for surgery. And I was just like, what? You know, like all of my all of my joy turned to sorrow. And it was like on a much smaller scale than hers, of course. But it was like, oh, I know what that feels like. I know that like rug pulled out from under you feeling, right? Um, and so for each one of them, like the flight to Egypt was like that scrambling to get the surgery and the bed rest and the back and forth to the NICU and all that, you know, just you whatever you can do to keep your baby safe is really what they were doing. And like I did that too. And and so, you know, on a much lower, smaller scale, but it was it was like, oh, like I know that feeling too, and you know that feeling too, you know, like so. This this encounter I had with her at this Starbucks one night, I'm like literally weeping in the chair as at the table as I'm reading it, and just thinking, like, oh wait, like you know all these feelings, you have all these experiences, and you um, you know, as I was just reading, I was talking about her the grace that she wants to give us to suffer well, and um the the fruit of meditating on her sorrows are there's like seven promises that are beautiful, but also just contrition for our sins is such a beautiful fruit of that, too. Um and so as I, you know, read all these and learned all this, and I was just crying in the Starbucks, I was like, oh, this is how you want me to share this with other people, you know, this is what you want me to share. And so it was like ding ding ding. You know, like I just I just put it together like, oh, you just needed me to like learn about this first, and then now I know how to connect other grieving mothers with our lady so that they can just find in her someone who that not only understands, but someone that they can relate to, that they can give that sorrow to and just say, like, show me how you got through this, or or you know, as the one who gives us the grace to suffer well, you know, they can ask her specifically for the grace that we need to get through each of our sufferings, you know, and not just child loss. For me, it was child loss, but but for any of our suffering, you know, for even for when your husband was sick, I'm sure there was that what, like he's you know, that rug pulled out from under you moment for you too. So for so many of us, at least one or two of those sorrows we can relate to personally.

SPEAKER_01 53:20

One of the things that a lot of people don't think of, and I didn't at first until I became a widow, was that she was also a widow.

SPEAKER_03 53:27

Yes, yes, of course. Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 53:30

Yeah, I wish there was more about her experience of that, you know, but we know that she was, yeah. And I think I think that there might not be anything about her experience with that because no one would understand until they go through it. Everyone I think it's easier to imagine, you know, watching your child suffer as a mother watching your child suffer, watching your your child pass away. But um, but imagining the loss of a spouse, I don't think there's any way anyone can actually imagine what that's gonna feel like until it happens. So, but knowing that she experienced that and knowing what I know about her and how she was as a mother, I do feel a deeper connection with her as a widow, as weird as that might sound.

SPEAKER_03 54:17

Yeah. Well, yeah, that was like that was one of my takeaways was I hate to say it this way, but that it's a unique opportunity for me to connect with our lady under this shared experience of child loss.

SPEAKER_02 54:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:37

And so because uh and one of the promises for meditating on it is like peace in your families and all the, you know, like oh there's so many. One of them is like at the moment of your death, I will intercede and you'll see the face of your mother, and like, you know, like I'll take you right to heaven if you propagate devotion to me. And um, and I I mean the promises are amazing, but I just thought, like, not everybody can relate to these sorrows on such a personal level as a grieving mother who has probably been through one at least one or so a few of these, like holding your child who died, or like you know, burying them, right? Like all of these things. You can just say, Oh, like I did that. I know what that feels like, I know how empty that feels, or how you know, how crushing that is. Um, and so I I I say it to the grieving mothers who do my retreat, but I like somehow this is a unique opportunity that we have to connect with our lady in this way and to understand these sorrows and be able to meditate on them because they're part of our story too.

SPEAKER_02 55:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 55:44

Um, so opportunity is and child loss are not often used in the same sentence, but yeah, but it's it is a unique experience that we have that we can we easily meditate on them because we have experienced them too.

SPEAKER_01 55:58

Yeah. Um, okay, we are starting to get short on time. But I did want no, this is great. I did want to ask you what is um, and I'm not sure if I'm gonna pronounce this right, uh Sursum Corda.

SPEAKER_03 56:11

Yeah, so Sursum Corda means lift up your hearts. It's part of the Eucharistic dialogue that we have with the priest right before he does the consecration. Like um I'm having a hard time. Like, it is truly right and just, you know, it is you know, lift up your hearts, we lift them up to the Lord. I'm trying to think we go to the Latin mass, so I'm thinking of the Latin words, but I'm trying to think of what the English, you know, the Novusordo words are. But yes, so lift up your hearts, we lift them up to the Lord. It's part of like we dialogue back and forth with the priest. Um and so yeah, one day I was just listening to that Eucharistic dialogue and realizing that the heart that I had to lift to the Lord was a broken one. It was a a broken and wounded one. And my lifting it up wasn't like a joyful, like, yay, I'm lifting up my heart. It was like, and I'm offering him this wounded, broken heart. And no matter what condition our hearts are in, we lift them up to him, you know, and he whether if they need b healing and binding up, binding up from him, then that's what they'll get, you know. And if if we're offering them up in joyful gratitude for something, you know, that we just whatever condition our hearts are in at that time, we are lifting them up to him.

SPEAKER_01 57:30

I I love that. I've never thought of it that way. Um, and then so how does all this connect to your magazine that you have?

SPEAKER_03 57:38

Yeah, so one of the things that I did, I told you I was writing to process things, and I was writing for this magazine that was for uh infertility and child loss. It was called Still Standing magazine. And um it it I I was reading it and then I started writing for it, and the writing helped me process things. The reading of other people's articles helped me realize that I wasn't alone in a lot of the things I was experiencing. And it but it wasn't a it wasn't even a Christian magazine, let alone a Catholic magazine. And there was no, I mean, some people were writing with a faith a leaning towards faith, and some people weren't, but um I just remember how helpful it was for me to both write and share my experiences and have people go me too to that and to read other people's experiences and to be able to say me too to theirs. And so I had this idea on my heart for a couple of years to start doing that with a Catholic lens, so that so that the writings of the saints and the you know the our our peers in suffering and um in an example for us in suffering, um, we could meditate on that. As I said, like I had this Protestant mindset and it was sort of like the the goodness, truth, and beauty of our faith, um, that really was like a healing balm once I was able to shift to you know the Catholic perspective on on suffering and grief. So I don't know where I cut out, but I know the goodness and the truth and the beauty of our faith was something that was healing for me. Like when I really leaned into it and I really like gained understanding of it and understood more and more of what was happening in the mass and just the offering that was being made and the fact that I could offer up my heart to God no matter what state it was in, even if it was shaky faith or you know, brokenheartedness that needed his healing. Um, so I wanted to offer something that both gave that experience of writing and healing and reading and healing, but also pointed people to the truth and beauty of the faith too. So we have hymns every month, we have prayers every month, there's a writing from the saints every month, but then people contribute poetry that they use to process their grief. They contribute just personal stories of how their faith helped them in different types of loss, from suicide to loss of a child, loss of a spouse, loss of a parent. Um, yeah, so it it's it's just turned into something that I love so much. I love reading people's stories. I love getting emails from people reading it, going, This this has been so helpful to me. So um I it was on my heart to create it, and I'm I'm glad that I did because it's it's been a neat experience.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:31

Can you share the title of the magazine and where they can find it?

SPEAKER_03 1:00:34

Yeah, it's called Those Who Mourn. And it's c it's found at those who mourn magmagal.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:40

Okay, awesome. Thank you. And then um so the final thing I want to talk about is this um grief workshop that we're co-hosting.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:52

Yeah, yeah, I'm so excited.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:54

Me too. And it was funny because I was having a conversation with someone from my parish about it because she saw me post about it. I said, Yeah, I'm really excited about it. I think it's gonna be really great. She's like, Yeah, I guess as great as it can be when you're talking about grief. And I kind of laughed and I said, Yeah, I I could see your sentiment about that. But you know, those of us that are in the grief world that are helping others grieve, it's not a community that you want to be a part of, but when you're in it, everyone is so compassionate and empathetic. And it's a great like it's a great supportive group to be part of when you have to be a part of it.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:29

Yeah, it that's so true. Yeah, you're you're happy to find it when you need it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:35

Um, so you uh you came to us and you wanted the theme to be at the foot of the cross. So what was it that made this theme feel right to you for this workshop?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:50

Yeah, did it was I really the one who wanted who said that I wanted that? Um I just knew that so September is that September's devotion is Our Lady of Sorrows. And um, and so I was just thinking that she was such a good example to me and my grieving and to you and your grieving. Um and to a lot of, you know, I think she is really an example to anyone who's grieving at any kind of loss, even if it's just the, you know, even if it's not a death, even if it's the loss of like something that you hoped would happen and it didn't. So um, you know, she just she suffers so well. The the graces of meditating on her sufferings and the promises of meditating on her sufferings are so uh like generous. Um and so I I just was thinking that we could be with her at the foot of the cross. We're all sort of um experiencing the death of someone we loved and just watching her example of of how she went through that with her her faith and hope and love intact um and learn from her. So that was that was my hope that we could, you know, you and and uh Nicole and I all have different experiences of loss, which I love. I think that's so uh interesting that you lost a spouse, Nicole lost her parents, I lost children. Of course, you lost children too, I'm so sorry. But um, you know, we deal with people who are grieving, uh and we all have different skills that we bring to help the grieving, and we come from different losses ourselves. And so I thought that combining efforts would be just a a really helpful way for people to get practical tools for healing from grief.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:37

Yeah, I absolutely agree. Um, and that kind of answers my next question um about what you're hoping that someone who's grieving will experience during these uh these couple of days.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:50

Yeah, it was where I was just not sure what I would need. Can you hear me?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:55

In those early days, I I didn't know what I would need. I just knew I need I wasn't I didn't know what I was doing. I was floundering in my grief. I was not sure what would help me. I didn't know that there were I as I became a a coach, a Catholic coach, I realized like, oh, I wish I had some of these tools in those early days of grief. But just like understanding how my spinning thoughts could be tamed, or how you know, learning about our Lady of Sorrows, I wish I had learned about her in my early days of grief, or you know, just different and your creativity. Like I know creating and being artistic was healing for me, but um, you know, I I wish I knew that early early on, you know, I uh and and had used that as a tool early on, but it was it was something I had to come back to as I was sort of refining myself and my grief and like remembering what things I used to enjoy. Um, but I I hadn't at the time thought of it of it as a tool for processing grief, which is what you're doing with it. And it's it's so healing. Yeah, so I just love that we all have something different uh to offer and it's it's tools that I wished I had had early when I was floundering.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:06

Yeah, and I'll be sharing a link to register for that in the notes of this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:12

Great.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:14

Um, is there anything else that you want to say about this workshop that we're doing?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:18

No, I just um I know not everybody's on Facebook, so the videos are available as in in in a separate um on a separate page. Like unlimited access to them is available if anybody is not on Facebook but still wants to attend, and they just need to get a VIP ticket for that um to be able to access them, but then they'll have unlimited access and you can do all the exercises and the creative um things that Jenny's offering as much as you want. You know, you can go back and refer to it again and again. So that's I know a lot of people have ditched the Facebooks.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:54

So there is an alternative if you're not on Facebook. And the other thing with that VIP is. Is that they get additional free resources that you want to get with just the regular ticket.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:05

Yes, yeah, from each of us. So yeah, that's helpful.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:09

Awesome. Well, Eileen, thank you so much for coming on this podcast. I think people are going to get so much out of it. The last question I want to ask you is, and this might be difficult, but I think it's important.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:22

All right, let me set up a little straighter. Here we go.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:25

If you could sit beside the Eileen, who had just buried two daughters in two months, knowing everything that you know now, what would you tell her?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:41

I think about her a lot. Um I would t turn her towards our lady sooner. I I know that because of my mother wound, I really resisted her. Um and prayer felt really hard. You know, everything felt hard. I just had never prayed for anything like I prayed for our healing for our babies. And my answer was no. And then I thought, well, golly, I don't know what to say to you now, you know. Um, but one day, about five years into my grief, I felt prompted to pray the rosary out of the blue, which it was not a go-to prayer for me, as someone who is a, you know, still kind of Protestant-minded and not really a fan of Our Lady. Um, I felt this prompting just early morning one day to pray the rosary. And um it put in my mind, uh here's another way that my Protestant mindset was affecting me. Uh in my mind, prayer wasn't valid prayer unless it was spontaneous. That's a Protestant way of praying. We don't open up a book or have like a recited prayer that we do, right? And I still was thinking like that. And so when I didn't know what to say, I didn't have anything to say. I didn't say anything, right? So there was a gap of years where it was just like, do what you want. You know, you will, you're gonna do what you want anyway. Like that was my prayer, was just sort of like, I don't know what to say to you. I know you're gonna do what you want to do, and I don't know how I don't think I can ask you for anything anymore. Um, and so it just I didn't realize that I could have just been like, help me, you know. I think I was saying those prayers, but that didn't feel like like my prayer life did before. Yeah. I wish that someone had sat me down and prayed the rosary with me, or just said that these these are prayers that are accessible to you, or our lady wants to help you with this, and that I had I think I think the timing was right for me that of when you know she knew I needed to sort of gradually acclimate to her and she needed to gradually reveal herself to me. And I think that I really think my confirmation helped me with that process. Yeah, but but I wish I I wish I had words to pray or knew that those were valid prayers too, right? That those prayers, because that gap of of years of not praying was really hurtful. So I I think I would sit with her and point her to our lady and encourage her to pray the rosary.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:08

I love that. That's so great. Well, thank you again. And for those of you listening, if you have been touched by this episode, you know someone else that needs to hear what has been talked about here, please subscribe, share, and like this podcast so it can reach those that need it. And we will talk to you all again next time.